The Need for Female Pedagogy in Teaching: A Conversation with Prof Kim Fox

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Kim Fox is a professor of practice in the Department of Journalism and Mass Communication (JRMC) at The American University in Cairo (AUC) Egypt. She primarily teaches Audio Production and other journalism courses, and her research interests include Podcasting, Audio, Radio, Media Representation, Teaching with Technology, and Social Media. Professor Fox in episode 23 of Her Media Diary shares her life story from the streets of Akron, Ohio, to the academic halls in Cairo, and how her passion for audio led her from being a voice on black radio stations in the US to becoming an influential educator shaping the future of podcasting and audio.

It’s great to have you here, Prof Kim. I often start this interview by trying to get to know the person I’m speaking to, their history, and their background. So, from the earliest memories. Tell us about Kim Fox.

I don’t know about my earliest memories, but I’m American. I’m from the United States. I was born and raised in Akron, Ohio. A lot of people don’t know that it’s the rubber capital of the world. A lot of the major rubber manufacturers are headquartered in my hometown, so that’s kind of a cool thing.

That’s great. So, what was it like growing up there?

It was a very working-class area; you’ve got these rubber factories. So that was kind of the city’s history. A very strong black community and the city has since transformed, but, it’s where I got my interest in radio and audio. listening to the radio growing up, going to concerts and just knowing that no matter what the family circumstance was, there was always music. There was always something that brought people together.

So where did your love for audio and radio start from? What was the journey to getting to where you are now like?

Just from listening to the radio, which is kind of interesting because that’s what my friends did as well, but obviously, they didn’t have the ambition to say, oh, I want to do that too. Initially, I wanted to do TV production, which I’ve done a little bit of. In my high school, we had a career program, and they had many areas. You could go into law, business, or communication. I ended up getting communication and I did really well in that program.

You mentioned that your high school was so instrumental in your progress into where you are now in terms of communications. So, what impact would you say that has had?

Oh, it’s huge. My teacher was really passionate about teaching us how to communicate, and how to be a good writer. One piece of advice that he gave me that I still use and I still share with my students, he’s like, if you want to improve your delivery, you need to read out loud. Whatever it is, just read it out loud. Listen to yourself, and critique yourself. This is like, this is the free and valuable advice, that’s still applicable to us today. So that kind of impact. Every time I look at students who don’t really care about their writing. I’m just like, you have no idea how important writing is to your life after college. And that’s what he instilled in me, the value of being a good writer.

I kind of get the impact of your teacher in developing your interest in this area. So then moving on to college, what was that transition like for you?

It was an interesting transition, having to move away from home, being on a college campus, and trying to figure out how to navigate that space. but knowing what I wanted to do, I kind of knew where to go to get started, which was good. And, that was to the college radio station.

And again, you know, you mentioned earlier growing up in the hood in a black neighbourhood, what was that experience like as a black woman in America, getting through this industry and so fast as well?

In one way it’s not that different because I worked at black radio stations. So it’s like I grew up listening to this thing, but now I’m a part of this thing. So I kind of knew it from a different angle in terms of like, being entrenched in it. Like, I’m the person who’s on the radio, I’m the person who’s representing the radio station in the community. So that was the difference. the big difference for me from college to working in commercial radio was having to do public appearances, like immediately, everyone wants you to come and talk at their school, to be a part of this activity, this church. There were just so many opportunities to meet you in person. What I wanted to do was be the person behind the mic, because by then I had made a choice to not do, like, being a TV anchor. Like, that’s not what I want to do because I want to be in front of the camera. So it was very interesting. Like, now you’re thrusting me into the public eye, and I hadn’t accounted for that. And the other thing I hadn’t accounted for is because you’re in the public eye, that you’re gonna encounter a stalker, for example. It definitely happened.

What was that experience?

It’s a little difficult. I had several. The issue becomes, who’s gonna protect you when you need to be protected if it comes to that? I remember at one point when I was in Buffalo, New York, I got some pretty graphic letters from a prisoner. And it’s not so much that you get the graphic letters, it’s that they’re like, ‘When I get out, I’m coming to find you’. And it’s just like, you don’t know if they’re coming to find you because they’re a fan. I don’t know what your incentive is. What are you trying to do here? And so then you have to report it, because, again, you’re supposed to protect yourself in some kind of way. And, thankfully, in my case, everyone jumped on it immediately. They were like, yeah, we got to give you police protection day and night. You can’t drive your car. All of a sudden, I had limitations on my movement because I needed to be protected. So it was an odd time, and then it’s just like, when do you sort of lift that protection? When do you think it’s safe to go back to, a normal life? it’s a blessing and a curse.

You mentioned that you were working for black radio stations. why was that?  Was there a different experience when you went to different types of radio that was not black radio? How did your experience differ?

Black folks will keep it real. So if you have a speaking engagement in the black community, folks are going to be like, what’s up, sis? Like, it’s just going to be real, down to earth. When we would do community events for, say, with the public radio station, it’s just that people are a little bit more reserved. It’s just a different vibe, a different purpose. In some cases, when, we were doing public events for the public radio station, it was usually to address a community issue on a very meticulous level, like a research level. Like, the statistics show that this is a problem. So we’re going to go into the community and talk about this problem with the experts. Whereas when we did community events in the black community, let’s say, like, we did this one big event in Cincinnati where a local high schooler got caught up in a gunfight. He’s like an ‘A’ student. You know, we’ve heard this story. He gets caught up in the gunfight, he’s paralyzed. And so we did this 24 hours, like, marathon on the air to raise money for his medical bills. These are two different things.

You seem to be having a very vibrant and successful radio career. I’m curious how you got your journey from America to Cairo, what was the journey like, how did you get into academia?

When I worked at this one public radio station in Cleveland, Ohio, My title was a researcher, but in essence, I was a producer, but they didn’t want to pay me a producer salary. So one of my colleagues told me about this graduate program. He was like, you should apply for this. And I was like, yeah, I don’t want to go to graduate school. And he’s like, but it’s at your alma mater and it pays for everything. It gives you a living stipend. And so I applied for it and I got it, and I was like, I’m gonna have to shut down my entire radio career and go back to college. And that’s what I did. It was only for a year, but it was a good year to go back to my alma mater and pursue the master’s degree. The master’s degree had a specialty that it was in public media, which was also my interest at the time, like, documentary-style work, narrative, and non-fiction storytelling.

I want to pick up on something that you said about the fact that you were doing the job of a producer, but getting paid as a researcher, let’s talk more about that and the pay gap kind of a thing. Was that a general experience you had in your career?

Oh, yes. I almost don’t want to talk about it because it pisses me off. When I worked in Buffalo, I filed a lawsuit against them for salary disparity. So there’s a guy who’s my co-host, and when we found out what the salaries were, I’m like, there’s a big difference. So I’m like, yeah, why is this? And they really couldn’t come up with a reason. And when I went to an attorney, it’s just like, there is no reason except for gender. There’s a gender disparity. the case ended up being dismissed on a technicality that didn’t even involve me in my case. It involved someone else. It just got messy. And by then, the station had fired me, and I think they fired me because I filed a lawsuit against them. And then I couldn’t prove that it was retaliation. It was just really messy. So then when I got to Cleveland I was in this researcher position and not being paid a producer salary, though, that’s what I’m doing. It wasn’t until I left. You won’t believe this, when I left, they were having a farewell party for me. The Chief Financial Officer came up to me, he was like, Kim, I’m so glad you’re leaving. You have the lowest salary in the company, and we can’t figure out how to bring you up. He was like, we can’t do it technically based on the legalities of how jobs are structured, you have to get out of the job, and we have to restructure the position for someone else to come in and then we can bring it up.

I’m just speechless. How did you respond to that? How was your reaction to that?

I mean, I’m on my way out the door, so it’s just like, what am I supposed to say? I still had an exit interview with the news director, and I did mention it, because the CFO’s position was, ‘Even if you get your annual salary increases, it’s never going to get you to where you’re supposed to be’.

This experience of being paid poorly because of your gender and, you know, lack of transparency, did it reoccur? Did it shape anything in your career going forward?

Going forward, I knew how to negotiate and ask for what I wanted. And I consistently tell my students this, especially because in Egypt, you’ve got this gender dynamic of a young Egyptian woman who would not feel comfortable going to an older Egyptian male boss to ask for more money. And I’m like, whatever that vibe and feeling is, just get rid of it. Take all of your confidence and go and ask for what you deserve. Because the worst that can happen is they’ll say no. I am the person who’s going to advocate for me, and that’s how it should be. So trying to make sure that women of all ages know that they’re entitled to this and make the man feel uncomfortable. Because they are wrong if they are not paying you the same amount of money as someone else in the same position. We had something at my university that happened recently, and I didn’t put my journalist hat on, but we had some sort of a meeting where there was a presentation, and on the presentation slide, it said something like, we fixed the problem of gender disparity in salaries. I’m like, what? What problem existed? And how come we don’t know? It’s like there was a problem. It came to their attention. They fixed it so that it wouldn’t get publicized. But the point is that stuff exists. And we have to do better about sharing that knowledge of, saying, you’re gonna have to tell someone what you get paid so that we can’t keep it a secret because it’s hurting everyone when we keep it secret.

I’m curious to know how you moved from that program to doing a PhD and becoming a professor of practice at the American University in Cairo. What was that journey like for you?

Well, I don’t have a PhD. That’s the interesting part. The professor of practice is designed for someone who comes from industry. So I was working at a radio station in Columbus, Ohio, a public radio station. And I had the opportunity to take the position in Cairo. But as my parents would say, why would you leave a good job like this? I was a weekend host. I was a reporter, and I asked the higher-ups if they would give me unpaid leave to explore the situation in Cairo. And they said ‘no’ without hesitation. It was really jarring for me because I didn’t see the harm in taking an unpaid leave. They said no, at which point I took that leap of faith and said, if you aren’t going to invest in me in this way, then you really don’t care about me. And so I just need to get out of here. And that’s when I took the leap of faith. And so, I went from working at a public radio station in Ohio to teaching full-time in Cairo, Egypt, in a matter of weeks.

There are a number of transitions there for you. So how did you navigate? What was that experience like in making those transitions?

Yeah, the career one wasn’t too difficult because I had already taught before. The teaching part that got tricky was, do I teach Egyptian students differently than I teach American students? And I was explicitly told, no, this is an American university in Cairo, and you should be teaching them as you would teach American students. Moving to a new country and a new city, was a little bit trickier. But I’d done my research again, because it’s an American university in Cairo, there is an American community and an expat community in Cairo that I could tap into to find my comfort zone. And I thought that was really important, and that’s how I managed to make it work. And the other thing that made it work was when I got hired, we had a cohort. So our cohort, we’re going to orientation together. We live in the same neighbourhood, and we really bonded in that regard. And I keep in touch with, almost with a lot of people from my cohort, just, because we went through a lot together and experienced all of the trials of, again, transitioning to a new country and a new job at the same time.

Apart from teaching, you have your research in podcasts and audio, radio, media representation, technology, social media, etcetera. So tell us more about your research and how that intertwines with everything else.

Yeah, well, I kind of break it up into two areas because I’m a professor of practice, and I’m required to do practice. And that practice for me is either radio or podcasting. So I’m actively doing podcast work, whether it’s consulting on projects or working on my own projects. I’m trying to make sure that I’m doing the thing that I’m teaching so that I know that I’m teaching the right thing and the right processes for the students who will be entering as media practitioners. In terms of academic research, it took me a while to find my way in that regard. And I say that because I’m a professor of practice. Like, I don’t need to do research. But what I found is that there was a gap in the knowledge. If I’m the practitioner, how do I teach, which is my pedagogy for how I practice and how do I teach that practice? So there was a gap in that, in trying to share that knowledge. And I’m like, well, for me, I bring a lot of my radio skills to the field, especially when it comes to production. Like, what are the differences between radio and podcasting in terms of production and storytelling? So whatever the nuances are and the difference, like, that’s how I’m going to teach this class depends on what I’m teaching. Am I teaching a radio class or am I teaching a podcasting class? The point is how to teach, and how to get the students involved. If students have never had a chance to make radio and audio, how do you teach them from the ground up? So when I had to start documenting my process, I was like, this is very valuable information. And that’s when I started to get into the research. The other gap in the research is there wasn’t a lot of research on black podcasters. So I’m looking at the scholarship and I’m like, well, again, where am I in this scholarship? And the same thing for Egypt. And for me, with the Egypt stuff, it became I’m teaching the future Egyptian podcasters and people who are doing audio production. So I know firsthand how they’re being taught and some of the habits that they’re taking from the classroom into the workforce because they’ve learned it on the front end. Whether it’s. I taught them how, like, what’s their workflow? How to do interviews. Like, these are the incremental steps that they need to know to be successful in the field. So that’s where the research came from.

I think it was in 2021 that you started PodFest, your festival. Tell us about that, because that’s very impactful. And I read a lot about kind of the work that you guys have been doing.

Well, we’re about to blow it up for the next iteration. So we’re like, we were already planning for next time. I’m like, yes, it’s going to be so much fun. So it’s another one of those things where I know about conferences, I know what’s out there, and I’m like, hey, we should do a PodFest. And I remember someone trying to get me to change the name. They’re like, no, we’re not going to call it PodFest. And I’m like, we are because I know what I’m talking about. I know what I’m doing. Again, you have to make sure that people know, like, I’m not just talking about this. I know this space. And that’s why we’re doing a PodFest Cairo because this is kind of the model that’s already out there. So, yeah, that’s the first. The first one that we did was in March of 2020, just before the COVID shutdown hit. It was the weekend before. And, it’s just a matter of luck. Not only did we do it, but I had a keynote speaker who came from the US, and she was looking like, am I going to be able to get out of here? Am I going to be stuck in Egypt? Yeah, everything worked out for us quite nicely. But the thing is about building that community. It’s like, I get a lot of requests from different people and I’m like, why don’t we all just get together, like, and have a conversation? And the beauty of it is also that we always embed simultaneous translation into our events. Even when we went online, we had simultaneous translation because it’s to say that’s not a barrier for us. We can work through this, but the knowledge that we’re sharing is for everyone.

What advice would you share with women who plan to make the kind of career transition just like you did?

It’s certainly that we’re not our parents in the workforce where they may have had the same job for an infinite amount of time. So it’s okay for us to go from one thing to another thing to another thing. and looking at a transition into media and teaching media is very valuable. Again, the students should be learning from people who know the thing that they’re going to be doing. That’s why I like having the title professor of practice because I’m also obligated to keep up with my field to know what’s happening. It gives me an excuse to go back to radio stations to see what they’re doing, and how digital technology has changed the workflow. So if you’re going to do it, kind of try to chart what you want to do. Why do you think you want to have an impact? Why do you think this is going to be in your favour? Like you say, if you’re a mother and you’ve got kids, like, why do you think this is going to be a better fit for you, for example? Because it may or may not be. It just depends. I mean, at least I get the summers off by choice. I don’t choose to work in the summer. So, yeah, if you want summers off, that’s a nice perk. In some cases, I did a panel about this at the Broadcast Education Association a few weeks ago in Las Vegas, and I had a panel of practitioners who had come into academia. Some of them had come in 20 years ago. The one guy is teaching and has been working at a radio station and still does a morning show at a radio station. So that kind of infusion is also very great because he’s like, I know exactly what they need to get into this field. And someone else had been working for the CBC in Canada and just came into academia maybe two years ago. So it’s like that diversity of viewpoints. Like everyone had a different experience. I think everyone came from the radio, though. And so that was also the beauty of it to say, coming from radio into academia, there is a road, there is a thread, and there is a need for someone that comes in with all of these skill sets and to be able to. Let me tell you the last thing I’ll say. The thing that works for me is I’ve always been a really good producer. Teaching is producing. It’s like you’re producing this class, this material. What are we doing today? How does that thread in with what we’re supposed to do by the end of the semester? It’s an entire production. It’s about the organization of your class.

Brilliant. And I’m curious to know how you’ve brought your own identity into your teaching, into the classroom. So as a woman as a black woman, as an American woman in Cairo, like, how does that all shape up in your practice and also in your teaching?

Sometimes it shows up in the examples that we listen to in class. Because I’m in Egypt, I’m very conscientious about it. I mean, I like to listen to this American life, for example, which I feel is very white in some instances. They’ve got more diversity these days, but it’s really good storytelling. So I feel like good storytelling is solid, no matter who’s involved. But I’m also always looking for people who look like them. So I’m, either gonna find people who look like them or if it looks like me, that’s where we’re gonna bring in some diversity. They’re gonna be black women, they’re gonna be Egyptian women, they’re gonna be Arab women. And this is the thing about PodFest. And people maybe don’t understand it sometimes. Because there were some people who were like, ‘Invite me to PodFest’, and I’m like,’ If you’re not Arab, I’m not inviting you’.

Because I need them to see people like them on this stage, people who are successful in this field and are at the top of their game. You could be there, too. And I need those people who model that to be in front of the room. One more thing about academia in the research, it’s just like. And that has to show up in my research in terms of citations, it’s just like, who are we citing? And if the canon is so white, then how do we make the canon not so white? How do we decolonialize podcast studies so that it is diverse? How do I get you to cite me in your work? Because that’s where I get to grow as a part of the canon.

And then it goes even back further. I need to find graduate students to get them in this field. I need to find people who will collaborate with me or someone else. So, again, the citation of study, that the citation of, the currency is what we have in our field. And so that’s when I’m like, when you look at my work holistically, am I helping out young academics? Young Egyptian academics? Like, what am I showcasing? I don’t have to tell anyone what I’m doing, but what I’m doing certainly tells you who I am.

So what is next for Professor Kim Fox?

I was trying to figure this out. I keep telling people I want a slow life. I’m not doing a lot of things at the same time. So I am saying no to a lot of projects. I have one big project on my plate that I haven’t really started, and if I go into it, it’s probably going to be kind of intense. and I’m not going to mention it because I don’t know that I’m going to go into it. I am working on several things that are academic, and I still have some creative work to do. I have at least three podcasts in my head that need to get out. Like, they got to get out of there. They keep coming up, and they’re really good ones. One of them, I wanted to talk about being an expat in Cairo, Egypt.

That would be so good. I would listen to that, and I’m not even an expert in Cairo, but that would be so good because there are huge expat communities all over the world. Right. So can we kind of agree that you’re going to do that sometime soon?

Right, I’ll try to do that one, because when I talk to my colleagues, sometimes there are things that’ll happen, and I’ll be like, are you kidding me? Like, that really happened? They’re like, yeah, that happened to me today. Like, we need to have a conversation about this and document these stories, right?

Yes, absolutely. Thank you so much, Professor Kim Fox, for joining me here. And I must say that what has really shown through this conversation with you is your confidence. You know who you are, you know what you want, and you’ve gone after it. So thank you. Thank you for doing that and for sharing your story with us.

All right. Thank you so much for having me.